Design Domination Podcast Episode #178: #1 Accessible Infographic Creator — With Eugene Woo

Music: https://www.bensound.com

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Getting to Know Eugene Woo

Colleen Gratzer: Welcome to the podcast, Eugene. I’m so excited you’re here.

Eugene Woo: Thank you very much, Colleen. The pleasure is mine.

Colleen: I wanted to dive into a couple of fun questions. You seem to be an outdoorsy and traveling guy. So I looked at your Instagram, I admit. I wanted to ask what is your favorite place that you’ve visited.

Eugene: That’s a tough question. Oh, gosh.

I’ll give you a recent one. I went to Portugal a few months ago, and I really enjoyed it—the food, the scenery and the people. People were really friendly, and, yeah, it was overall very laid back, just such a good time.

Colleen: Oh, nice. Do you speak the language?

Eugene: I don’t. I speak Spanish though. But I do not speak Portuguese.

Colleen: I speak Spanish too.

Eugene: They don’t speak only Portuguese, so you can speak Spanish there. Actually everyone in Portugal—not everyone, everyone we’ve met in Portugal—seems to understand English really well. But they also understand Spanish.

Colleen: Oh, OK.

Eugene: Because I understand Spanish, I could actually understand a little bit I would say at least 50 percent.

Colleen: Yeah.

Eugene: And all the simple words are the same.

Colleen: I have a degree in Spanish and French. My Spanish is really good. My French is like… I sound like I’m Spanish speaking French. But I’ve noticed that I can hear Portuguese and I can hear Italian and I can make out what someone is saying.

Eugene: Yeah.

Colleen: Portuguese, to me, sounds like a combination of Spanish and French.

Eugene: They have the intonation like in French. When I hear something like, oh, yeah, this is like Spanish with French-like intonation, it’s really cool.

Colleen: It’s español au français.

The other thing I saw was this picture on your Instagram account of a wild boar that you came across. So that made me think…

And you like swimming? Would you rather encounter a wild boar or would you rather encounter a shark?

Eugene: Yes. I think a shark.

Colleen: You would rather encounter the shark?

Eugene: Yeah.

Colleen: So the wild boar photo that I saw you must have been hiding or something. It wasn’t like it was chasing you. But I imagine they do a lot of damage. And they do chase, right?

Eugene: Yes. I think the wild boar was… I don’t remember now. But I was maybe on top of it. It was at the bottom of a ravine or something. So it would take a little bit of climbing for that guy to charge me.

I think I was safe. I think. I am actually probably more terrified of wild boars than sharks. I have swum with sharks before. Unless it’s a great white shark or some massive shark, yeah, it’s fine. It’s nice.

I’ve swum with, I would say, a fair bit of reef sharks and even fairly big ones, like four or five feet probably. So like, bigger than six feet. But not like the Great Whites, not the “Jaws” kind. They’re not trying to eat me. So it’s fine.

I’m afraid of the deep ocean. I think if I were tossed out of—I don’t know, a cruise ship—yeah, I would be afraid.

It’s all dark and you can’t see the bottom.

Colleen: I wouldn’t want to swim with any kind of shark. I don’t care how small it was. But I have done swimming with dolphins, which was really fun. I wasn’t afraid of them.

Eugene: Oh, there you go. Sharks are just like dolphins except they eat you.

Colleen: Yeah. Exactly. That’s the only difference..

Eugene: It’s not very different. The shape is kind of the same.

Accessible Infographic Creator and Canva Alternative

Colleen: It’s really hard… You know I’m sure. You know better than me how hard it is to find software that actually produces an accessible result.

It’s a painstaking process to have to do that yourself. I know because I’ve had to do that. Any service I use, if something’s not accessible, I’ve got to recode. I’ve had to recode email templates to be accessible.

I’ve recoded themes to be accessible on my site. I mean, it’s just a lot of work. It’s a painstaking process.

I’ve also hacked the code of plugins to make them more accessible.

I’ve had to do a lot of this stuff. I’ve even had to retag documents without having access to a source file because I do remediate documents.

Eugene: Right.

Colleen: So I know the struggle, especially being someone who needs to practice what I preach, especially since I teach accessibility. I do my darnedest—my darnedest—to make sure anything that I put out there is accessible.

So I feel like I need to give a shoutout to companies that are contributing to the accessibility effort.

I was really excited to learn about Venngage, when I learned about them from my friends, Dax and Chad, when you were on Chax Chat.

I was just like, this is great. We have to talk.

I tried it out and I really liked it. I liked the look of the interface. I like how it works. I mean, it’s very similar to Canva. It has really good accessibility features. It’s easy to use. It makes it fun and interactive.

Actually, it’s like a mix of Canva and Illustrator and a bit of InDesign. Designers and non-designers can use it, like Canva. You don’t have to be a designer.

Eugene: Right.

Colleen: You can set up templates for other people to be able to use. Then they can edit it, but someone who’s not a designer can go in and they can also edit the data on the charts.

Someone who’s not a designer is not going to go into Illustrator and start playing around with the data in the charts. Then they would have to have a subscription to Adobe as well.

But it also reminds me of Illustrator because of the vector graphics. Those are a really rich feature in Venngage.

I think it reminds me of InDesign too in that you can do a little bit of layout and the exported documents have some of the accessibility tags, They have the P tags and heading tags.

Of course, just a document having tags does not mean that they’re the correct ones.

InDesign does a really good job.

I liked what I saw from Venngage in my tests. I saw a really good job as well. So I was really excited about that.

Making Venngage Accessible

Colleen: I wanted to first see what made you all get into accessibility and start adding accessibility features into Venngage.

Eugene: So that journey started, gosh, now, almost three years ago, two and a half years, and change.

Change, I would say, we were in the process of rebuilding our platform.

Venngage has been around for 12 years, 11 to 12 years now. So the old platform was by then almost 10 years old, and we were like, yeah, we need to rebuild it. There’s a lot of what we call “technical debt” in the platform.

One of the requests that we had frequently was: “Hey, can we download an accessible PDF?” “How do I add Alt-text?” “Do you have an accessibility checker?”

It was essentially a recurring theme, and it’s one of those groups of things that we didn’t have that we looked at and go like, gosh, we should look into this.

The more we looked into it, the more it made sense, I was like, yeah, we should make our documents more accessible.

That’s when—and I’ll be honest—I didn’t know much about accessibility. But when we made the decision that we wanted to make our designs and documents accessible, then I had to learn about it. I would say the whole company had to learn about it. Then we kind of embraced it.

I would say for what we call the category we’re in is a non-professional design tool because most of our users are not professional designers. They’re still on InDesign or Illustrator or something else.

We’re probably one of the only or the few that have an accessibility checker. I haven’t checked to see if Canva has one. They may have one. I’m not sure. But the last time we checked, we were the only ones that actually have an accessibility checker that checks everything that WCAG 2.1 requires—everything from color contrast to having the tags and heading logical reading and all of the stuff that is required by law and to make it accessible.

Colleen: Originally, you did not have accessibility integrated into the platform. So then you added it.

Do you see that as having a competitive advantage over Canva because you have that?

Eugene: I think so, yeah. It’s a small competitive advantage over Canva. We always say Canva is the gorilla in the market. They’re huge.

We’re a very small player. We’re like a small business, just for context. But we’re a small business, a small player in the market.

But I do think it’s a competitive advantage. It’s sort of like a niche, right?

Like I always say, hey, we’re like Canva except that we have accessibility, and we do better in things like infographics and sort of business stuff.

Canva can’t be everything to everyone. So we focus on our niche. Accessibility has become one of those things that because we have all these features and we actually understand accessible documents—probably better than the Canva team and a lot of the other teams—we talk to people like you and all day we’re in the community. So we’re able to add features into our tool that can help people who want to make their documents accessible.

Colleen: Well, one of the things I noticed when I was using it is that…

I know how resistant designers can be even to get into accessibility. I teach them. A lot of them don’t want to get into it. They think it’s too technical.

I’ve been trying to change that. So that can be a challenge to get designers interested in that.

But what I really liked about your software is that it’s got this interface that not only looks good, so it’s appealing to designers, but you have tooltips with explanations to educate anyone who’s using it—not just designers obviously—but to educate them about what this is for or what this means. I think that’s really helpful and very interactive and educational.

Eugene: You’re absolutely right it’s not just designers. Anyone in general, someone writing a document in general… If you have to teach them about accessibility, they’re just going like, why do I have to spend this much time?

So one of the key sorts of design principles that we adopted was we have to kind of design this sort of like universal design, an accessible design where we don’t want to have to teach someone a whole new platform, a whole new way to design. We want to try and integrate accessibility as much as possible as part of the design process.

The tooltips is one of the things you mentioned. So I think color is the other one.

Accessibility Features in Venngage

Contrast Checker

Eugene: One of the things that we found really annoying was if you have to use an outside color checker every time you look for a color.

Who’s going to do that? No one’s going to open up another color tool and just copy and paste a hex code.

It’s really difficult to do that—find out what the hex code is, find out what the background hex is, the foreground… It’s a lot of work.

Colleen: It is.

Eugene: So we had to design a system so that it’s now just integrated in. The color picker will do all the testing in the color picker itself. So when you pick a color of a text or an object, we will do the comparisons and tell you very simply. We’ll highlight in red if it’s low contrast, and then if it’s good enough in green.

We also look at the font size. With large fonts, as you know, you can get away with lower contrast and so forth.

So a lot of the accessibility is sort of built in, and so it’s less effort. We tried to make it less effort and we also tried to put some guardrails there.

So while there’s some guardrails around some of the stuff you can do and cannot do, although we had to take out… Not to say we took them all like before…

We made it really strict where every time you downloaded, we will pop something up and say “This isn’t accessible.” “This is accessible.” I think that was a little too annoying. So we took that out and made it more of a “Hey, if you want to check it, then you check it.”

Colleen: Oh, I see. Okay.

Yeah, and for anyone that’s listening, if you haven’t been listening to me and you don’t know about color and contrast, because I talk about it all the time—that contrast is important for sighted users… It’s important for low-vision users and also for users with color blindness.

I’m having issues reading things that are lower contrast that I didn’t used to have, but I don’t have a visual disability and have not been diagnosed with visual disability but I have issues with that.

Eugene: Oh, yeah, 100%. I think even in low-light situations sometimes.

Colleen: Yeah, that’s a good example, right?

Eugene: Yeah, at night like or whatever or too much glare, you kind of need contrast to be high enough, so you can actually read the font or whatever it is that you want people to look at.

Colleen: Yeah, situational accessibility. Yeah, exactly. Great point.

Accessible Document Templates

Colleen: I also noticed too that you have the accessible templates that are tagged with certain heading levels and paragraph text, and so forth. Even if you’re starting from that, though, you can still go in and you can change those and modify the tags and add more text and and still mimic that hierarchy and add more items into the design. So the accessible templates are a really great starting point as well for that.

Eugene: Yeah. So we have what we call “accessible templates.” Those are essentially templates that don’t require a lot of…

You can pretty much, like you said, just add stuff, and they’re good to go.

We’ve sort of evolved since then. You can also take any template and just run the accessibility checker and just kind of fix stuff up as you go along as well.

The reason (not 100%) we didn’t mark everything as “accessible,” is because we’re still in the process of kind of making sure all the tags are correct. We did this conversion for…

Like I said, we went from the older platform to the new platform, so we transferred all these older templates over. You can make all of them accessible. It’s just that the tags, I think by default, everything is like a header, like even a paragraph is a header or something like that.

So it’s kind of wonky, and the order is a bit wonky. You’ll have to reorder… What I mean by “the order” is the reading order. The order on the page looks fine. The reading order may be a little bit off, and you’ll have to go in there and reorder the reading order a little bit.

That’s about it. Everything else, as far as color and all, I think we’ve done a good job in general. But you can definitely take any template on Venngage and very quickly using this accessible checker make it like accessible.

Colleen: Yeah, I noticed that. So you guys are kind of remediating your older templates—

Eugene: Exactly.

Colleen: To make them accessible. You’re doing your own remediation work there.

Eugene: Yeah, yeah correct. So that it’s a lot easier for other people.

If there’s something that has four different sections on it… Typically, that’s what our users do. They’re not creating anything from scratch.

They take our templates. They just replace the tags, replace the images, maybe the color and the branding and then they’re done.

So if you just did that, and then you export it without doing anything without, like, it should be—if it’s an accessible template—I don’t know, 90% accessible. You might have added some images and put Alt-text in there, but otherwise, it would be really, really good.

Colleen: Okay, and then the tags we’re talking about those are for headings and paragraphs.

There are other tags that you can use in a document. But those are good to help illustrate the hierarchy in the document for someone that can’t see it and then they understand it’s an outline for the document. Here’s the heading, here’s a subhead, and this is in this section and so forth.

So that’s really important when somebody is not able to look at the page. They can’t see the page.

Image Alt-text

Colleen: You have the ability to add Alt-text, and you have the AI generator, which I tried out, and that was really good actually. It did a good job.

Eugene: Yeah so the AI… So Alt-text, obviously, like you can do Alt-text on any images, illustrations, anything obviously that’s not text. You can do Alt-text, including charts and diagrams as well. And then the AI stuff is, you know, you can autogenerate the text.

I think it does a good job and then you just go in… Just like anything AI, don’t rely on it 100%. But I think it gives you a great starting point and then you can go in and…

We use ChatGPT. And ChatGPT is getting better and better. As they get better and better (the autogenerated AI), the autogenerated Alt-text is going to get better and better as well.

Colleen: Well, and it also looks like… Correct me if I’m wrong.

If you add Alt-text to an image, you get that little blue tag that says “Alt” on it, so you know that you’ve added it.

Eugene: Right. You can.

Colleen: So you can easily visually scan your document to see if you’ve added Alt-text to something or if something is decorative that it doesn’t have Alt-text too.

Eugene: Correct. Yes.

We can overlay the headings and the Alt-text on your canvas as well.

Colleen: Oh! So if you have an H2, it’ll say “H2” on there? I don’t remember if I saw that. Does it do that?

Eugene: Yeah, if you turn on the tags. It’s not by default. We have a tag view. It will highlight all the tags.

If you turn on all the headings, you’ll see all the tags on the on the page.

Colleen: Oh, that’s great.

Eugene: Very similar to the Alt-text. The same UI is very similar to the Alt box on Alt-text.

Colleen: I definitely have to check that out. Okay, so that’s really cool. Yeah, that’s really helpful.

Accessibility Checker

Colleen: Then you talked about the checker earlier, which I saw that it checks for clear link text, not a bunch of “click here’s” or “read more’s” and things like that. That’s really neat that’s doing that.

Eugene: Yeah, we check for, I think… We try to automate as much as we can—the things that we can automate for checking. Then, obviously, there are manual checks that have to happen, as you know, a necessity. You still have to check to make sure that you don’t…

You can pass the test, but it could still be not accessible, because the text isn’t linked—“click here” or “read more.” But it just could be completely wrong.

Colleen: Right.

Eugene: Or it could be something else.

Colleen: Right. Clear link text is so important for anyone that isn’t able to see where that hyperlink is going to take them. So if they have to hear it, and they just hear…

A screen reader user can pull up a list of hyperlinks in the screen reader. If they see a whole bunch of “click here’s,” they don’t know if there are five of those or are all five links the same? Do they all go to the same place?

Are they five different links? Are they three different links? Whatever. So clear link text is important.

Then I saw that… I love how it does the reading order, just how you can drag and drop like that. That was super easy, the reading order in the checker there.

Eugene: Yeah, I think that’s probably one of the cool… I think the tags and the reading order are one of the cooler things in our editor, and you can do all of that in the editor without having to export it and then use a remediation tool and use like Adobe to redo all of that stuff.

You do all the tech, you get it.

Colleen: Right.

Eugene: You just do it all in one platform as you’re designing. So yeah, and the goal always has been to spend a little bit more time on the design and the accessibility.

Once you get used to the tool, it doesn’t really… It’s like five minutes more maybe, if not less, and then you save all that time on having to send it to a remediator or, worse, releasing it without it being accessible.

Colleen: You said the other things you’re checking for is the color—checking for contrast. I think there’s a manual check for use of color in there too. I think it flags it, right?

Eugene: Yeah. There is a manual check. It does color and then, I think, images of text, and there’s a whole bunch of stuff that’s logical reading order and obviously manual ones.

Colleen: Right, lots of manual checks. Yeah. And then… Yeah.

So editing the tag order was super easy to do. I like how it’s visually in there. It’s super clear.

Also I noticed that you can set the document language, I was like, wow, okay.

Eugene: Yeah, it’s set by default. So I think we autodetect the language.

Colleen: Okay.

Eugene: It’s set by default. You don’t actually have to go in and set it to like English or whatever. It is set by default. If you want to change it, you can go change it.

Document Title

Eugene: Then the document title is typically the title of the document. That’s it. So we use the metadata, the properties of the document.

Colleen: Okay, so what happens if, like, you have an image in there, like a design that’s all in English, and then you duplicate that and you want to make it Spanish? Is that going to then recognize the Spanish automatically?

Eugene: I actually don’t know the answer to that. Yeah. I don’t know. That’s a good question. I’ll have to get back to you. I don’t know, when we actually do the detection, is it real-time every time you check, or do we do it upfront so…

Colleen: I also imagine, even if you had a bilingual design on the same page, most people are not going to be doing that… But that would be interesting to know like how it’s detecting it. Yeah.

Eugene: So yeah, I don’t know that. I do know that we don’t handle bilingual within the same document. So if you have one section, you can tag it as this section in Spanish and then go back to the English. I know we don’t do that yet.

So that is something that I think you would still have to manually include or manually remediate if you had a document that had multi-language.

Color Blindness Simulator

Colleen: Another feature that I think was like super cool, including well for non-designers and designers, though, is the color blindness simulator because you’re checking for… I think there were six different types of colorblindness in there.

Eugene: Right.

Colleen: That it’s checking for. Yeah, so that’s pretty cool.

Eugene: Yes.

Colleen: You don’t have to go to an outside source for that either.

Eugene: No, no, exactly. So we check for the big ones—the green…

I cannot pronounce it. I apologize. I cannot pronounce what they’re called.

Colleen: Yeah.

Eugene: Protanopia?

Yeah, I’m gonna screw up all the pronunciations but detecting reds, greens and yellows and then cataracts and low vision, which is kind of blurry.

We can simulate all of that on the canvas as you’re designing as well. So then you can see whether your color choices are great or not.

Colleen: Right.

Eugene: So for the different color blindness. Yeah.

Colleen: Illustrator built in only has two different visual simulators in there. So this is pretty neat that you get the achromatic, so just grayscale, view, and, like you were saying, the red and green (protanopia) and the blue-yellow (deuteranopia).

That’s more extensive than Illustrator goes with that.

Of course, it’d be nice to have that in InDesign, but we don’t have that.

Eugene: There’s probably a plugin for that. I’m not sure.

Yeah, so I mean, I think the other thing that we recognize is, yes, there are a lot of plugins. You can like put a bunch of plugins, and it probably will work with a lot of the Adobe tools.

We just wanted everything on the platform. We might also just add all of it as you’re designing to make it easier, because I think most designers will not add a plugin, unless they really need it in some way and they’re really educated on it.

One of our goals was we wanted to make assess… We wanted to sort of also educate people who didn’t know about accessibility about accessibility.

I think this is one of the ways we don’t expect people to know about… In fact, we know this because we ask people whether they care and it was a very low… It was a small percentage of users who knew about it.

We can measure—and we do measure—usage of the features in our tools, and the usage has been increasing.

So presumably, we assume that these are users who initially a lot of them would probably use this who didn’t know about accessibility. Then they find out, oh, I can do all these things.

Venngage Users

Colleen: Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. So the, the designers and non-designers that use your platform, where are they typically from?

Eugene: A lot of them are from the States. I would say at least 50%.

Colleen: Not location, but are they government? Are they…? So that kind of background.

Eugene: It’s a mix. We have a lot of students who use our platform. I would say 50%. Or, I mean, at least until the semester is over. So in the summer, no, but when the semester is in, about 50% of our of our users are students.

Then the rest of them are government, nonprofits. Obviously, a lot of small businesses uses this as well. I don’t think the small businesses care about accessibility. But the government institutions and higher ed do.

The initial request we got was from governments and higher higher ed. Actually we had…

We’re based in Canada, and some of the initial requests that we had were actually from the Canadian government because they are very similar rules as the States. But I think there’s more—I’m not sure—there’s more enforcement. I don’t want to say that, but that people are probably more cognizant of it here, because of the way it works.

Colleen: AODA where you are.

Eugene: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, which is very similar to its WCAG. It’s the same.

Educating Users About Accessibility

Colleen: Yeah. Right.

So with those users of your platform, what do you think is the biggest impediment then with education to accessibility and adopting accessibility and getting them on board at the wider scale?

Eugene: I think it’s the status quo. You mentioned Canva. I think a lot of users are already using Canva. They’re on an existing system.

We had pushback. The features are very similar. Why do we have to switch? I think that’s one.

The other one is the reliance on remediators. Larger organizations do have an inaccessibility team. They do have PDF remediators, all kinds of remediators. They’re like, “It’s not my job. I’ll just design whatever I need to design.”

I’ll let the remediators deal with it. And, you know, even though it’s a lot more, it’s a lot more work. It takes a lot more time, it’s probably a lot more expensive as well.

Colleen: Oh, yeah.

Eugene: That’s also one of the impediments—is that they don’t want to learn about accessibility. That’s at least what we’ve seen in higher ed and in these larger organizations that do want accessibility.

Colleen: Maybe they’re also like, well, we already have enough on our plate and I have to learn something else.

Eugene: Yeah. We’ve been very successful. We’ve onboarded a few higher ed university teams that were using Canva and then they switched over.

They’re like, “Oh, it’s just like Canva.” It’s not that different, except that you get the accessibility at a much easier and lower cost, because it’s all the features that we’ve talked about.

Colleen: Right, right. Well, I also noticed that, even when I exported a PDF, I was looking at the tags, even the tables, the table feature you have in there. It was even like tagging the table headers with the proper tag.

Eugene: Yeah. It should be correct.

Colleen: I was like whoa, wow.

Eugene: Yeah, the tables should be tagged correctly. Yeah, the roles. That should be good.

I mean, most everything should be exported with proper tags, unless we had…

I mean, there are always bugs. As we introduce a bug here and there, but for the most part, we did look at everything and made sure that, hey, if we actually exported the PDF, to a screen reader, it will be accessible. You should be able to read it properly with a screen reader. It should pass if you use a tool to check, like PAC, a PDF checking tool, accessibility checker.

Colleen: I think also this is, for designers, a great opportunity, especially because so many designers are asked to design things in Canva. I know they hate doing that.

I don’t see anything wrong with doing that if it’s you’re not trying to lay out like a huge publication in Canva that you should be using InDesign for.

I always say would you rather dig a hole with a spoon or a shovel? You need the right tool for the job.

Eugene: Right.

Colleen: So obviously, there are situations where you don’t want to be using a tool like that.

But designers can like leverage all the opportunities that they’re doing now in Canva. If they need to incorporate accessibility, they can get clients on board with the with Venngage, which has similarities to Canva, but with the accessibility.

If they’re already doing work for somebody in Canva, they can switch to Venngage and actually get the accessibility features. They can actually create their own templates in there too.

That’s a huge opportunity for them when working with clients, because so many clients want to use a platform like Canva or Venngage, where they can go in there and they can manage it themselves.

So a lot of them want to get it. They don’t want to deal with an Adobe subscription or they have people that are not designers.

Eugene: Right.

Colleen: So with a platform like what you’ve got… I see a lot of opportunities there for designers to leverage the features in Venngage for that.

Eugene: Yeah, I think our hope is that, if you’re interested in accessibility and you want to make—and everyone should be—yeah, you should use a tool. You should use the right tool, like you said.

I can say choose the right tool so that it doesn’t… Don’t use the wrong tool, because then you’ll have to add more work. If you want to make things accessible, you’ll have to buy an Adobe subscription or hire a remediator or do a lot more work. You might as well just start with the right tool that can produce accessible PDFs and accessible designs.

New Features in Venngage

Colleen: Well, so you already have so many accessibility features built into Venngage. So what is like even next on the horizon?

Eugene: So there are a few things. I think there’s some work on charts and diagrams. It’s not that’s hard in general even to remediate like a chart right now.

Right, now, we let you do Alt-text, which is kind of simplistic, so we do want to improve on that.

I think the other one that we’re more excited about is—essentially it’s more of an administrative feature where we sort of let you look at your whole organization.

So we’re monitoring all of the documents, all the designs that that are being produced. Then we’ll—very similar to how a website accessibility checker gives you the lay of the land of all your pages and what’s the percentage of accessible and all that…

We would do the same thing with documents, where we would monitor all the documents that were downloaded from our platform and tell you what’s the percentage that were actually accessible and what potentially isn’t and those that weren’t accessible what are all the… What are all the percentages of errors?

So we would give someone like an administrator a high-level view. If you were, let’s say, in a university, and you had users on Venngage…

How many of the documents that were produced, did the user actually run the accessibility checker? What percentage of those were actually accessible versus non-accessible?

We know that everything’s not going to be 100%. But, hey, if you can see a trend that’s kind of increasing a positive trend over time—and that’s what we want to show. We want to show administrators and high-level people that, hey, if you adopt this platform, we’ll give you a dashboard, and you’ll see—hopefully, you’ll see—that the percentages of documents created will increase—accessible documents created will increase—over time.

Colleen: Well, I can see that being an opportunity for designers who are doing accessibility. That could be something where they can go in and they can see that information and they could help make those existing templates more accessible for a client too.

Eugene: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean or using the same platform, they could go like…

In our enterprise plan, we have these workspaces. We have this concept of workspace or groups. So you can see here which group is producing more accessible data and which ones aren’t—like completely ignoring—accessibility.

You can either go in and coach those groups—hey, maybe we’ll help you with… Maybe your templates aren’t good. We’ll fix it for you, or maybe it’s training.

That’s simple. But at least you sort of have a high-level view of how the organization or all the different groups or clients are doing.

Colleen: Wow, okay, that’s really cool. All right.

Well, you’ve got a special page set up for my audience. You all can find that at creative-boost.com/venngage. Venngage has two Ns, so it’s V-E-N-N-G-A-G-E.

Eugene: There are several paid versions. You can sign up for free.

Colleen: So you have several different levels. OK. All right. Awesome.

Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It’s been great to talk to you.

Eugene: Likewise, thank you very much for having me on your podcast. I appreciate it.